toronto, and michael murphy thank you. >> the in box, geithner on the rescue, that is it for us tonight. we'll see you tomorrow night, good niggt from new york. neil: republicans be careful what you wish for, limiting deductions could be a bigger tax hike than raising rates, we do the mag you decide, i am neil cavuto, to hear some democrats whisper, and giggle they have the grand old party in a grand old head fake, making republicans think not getting tax rate hike on the rich say win when the deal to get that winning end up socking the rich more, a figure i'm hearing bandied about $50,000. that is the likely cap that

republicans will agree to for things like mortgage interests, and chair it able deducts, see z as many in 250 grand and overcrowd write-off hundreds of thousands of dollars that means hundreds of thousands of dollars more subject to taxes. if you limit it to 50 grand, a lot of them are looking at a real federal tax rate closure to 45% than 39.6% they are fearing now. no wonder some democrats are laughing all the way. should they be? in the name of avoiding a rate hike, are republicans about to come up with an alternative that proves a bigger tax hike? let's ask. rich edison. sabrina schaefer, and dan mitchell, rich, i have not even got into investor related taxes that goes up, medicare surcharge for well to do, i can go on and on with what states are doing

with millon air taxes and the like that go -- are republicans missing this? >> you know, when you come into this argument, republicans are sort of going into this branding it as a revenue increase, they refuse to say tax increase, part of this, they say, you create a more efficient system in maybe you could lower rates maybe you get rid of some deductions, but that generates more economic activity, that is more money to be taxed. but, don't be mistaken, you are taking more money from the american population than you would be without factoring in economic growth. talk about that cap, tax policy center says a 50,000 collar cap on -- 50,000 dollar cap on deduct, 750 bill i don't know over 10 years, that is real from come. neil: do you think that is what democrats are hinting at, when they say, it does not have to be a rate hike or bust?

that they are quietly thinking, you know with this alternative, we could actually get more tax revenues. >> i think it will is because we're still having this debate, which is going to work, spending cuts or increasing taxes? are record, i do not think we can tax our way out of debt, but i think they know that it is not politically effective to say we'll increase taxes, republicans are terrified. they are between a rock and a hard place. they will be skewered by conservative groups they tried to go along with this, and fried to im-- tried to impose tax increase, at the same time, this is a very difficult situation. that could leave the country far worse off with higher taxes in end. neil: dan, i wonder if we get both, a hike in rate and a limit on wealthier prayerers, it could be the worse of both worlds.

>> morale of story, there is no good reason to raise taxes, whether it is scaling back deducts or higher tax rates, if you do the cap now it will be followed by higher tax rates a year or two from now, problem is 100% plus, on the spending side. the budget, if you increase people let's marginal tax rate with deduct cap, maybe, if math comes out right, it is not as bad as increase in official top tax rate but you still penalize people for working, saving and investing. i am in favor of getting rid of deducts but only if you use every single penny to reform the tax system give us something noncorrupt and pro growth bike a like a flat tax. neil: norquist argument with pledge, that you can go ahead, and close the loopholes if you found core responding cuts in

other areas, or certainly in tax rates down the road, as part of a quid pro quo, his concern is we never get to the ,quo, and hw much is that on fear that it will come back to bite them later. >> that is say concern, other concern, you have overall what is federal government taking from american population in tax revenue, the semantics of what is and is not a tax increase has been the foundation, of this entire argument between them, you have norquist saying further reduce deductions by 750 billion over 10 years, you then must cut rates, immediately. to offset that to give about 750 billion back to another segment of the taxpaying

population. that is not what we're seeing in the discussions. not every republican, every know out there does not believe that if you close preferences in one place and you get rid of deducts in one place you must have to have a corresponding offset, democrats are not going to walk away thisw this and say, economic growth am shunning the get us 1.6 trillion in revenue that we want, they rt hard and -- they want hard and fast tax increases. >> you know, sabrina, here is what worries me, this is a green thing, i see much more emphasis on republicans having to make concessions on revenues, they appear to be doing in lockstep. so, i am accepting that, as a given. but, as far as cor corps standig

cuts that democrats are offering, they say don't look at it right now, this is a separate in issue the new year, what worries me to make a deal they surrendered everything. >> you should be worried, in takes two to tango or to send us over the fiscal cliff. but only party we're talking about right now is the g.o.p., and they are. neil: why are they doing this? i know a close election, but, it is not as if they were just wiped off the face of the earth? what are they doing? >> i think there are a couple things here, dan and i were talking, if they go ahead, and go along with this, then they are setting a tone and putting themselves at risk for midterm elections, they can't afford to lose at this point politically. but i think they know, that if theyment long-term tax

solutions, a simplification of the tax code if that i want to talk about entitlement reform they have to concede a bit. i think one thing that could help both sides if we had a well the more transparency in this conversation so it is not just republicans that are strong armed here. neil: you know, dan, you are closer to this than i will be, but i have to say between this concession of republicans to entertain what could be more substantial revenue hikes, so say nothing now of embracing the idea of suzanne rice -- susan rice hearing on the benghazi thing on capitol hill, now all of a sudden, she is not a fool, there is something weird going on, i see them folding on one issue after that another. and i do not know what their weather that is me or whether there is something systemic going on with republicans just folding up their tent? >> i think that systemic thing

that alloy of republicans like big government secretly, the purpose of grover's pledge, that is a pledge to their voters, but it was because republicans too often come to washington saying, it is assess 3508, but after a -- cesspool and after a couple of years they say it a hot tub. but it is not going to work we've seen with budget summit after budget summit, whatever you give more revenue to government, they wind up increasing spending not on mention there are usually -- and they never get as much revenue as they think they will get, so we will dig ourselves deeper into a hole if we wind up letting government get bigger by feeds the beast with more taxes. neil: thank you all very much this is an alarming development post-turkey days, some republicans maybe acting like turkeys. this is cyber monday, a lot of

you, if you were working buying stuff, you were not alone, 1.5 billion in cyber related sales if there is a scare on part of justaf ran average joe d grow an and this fiscal cliff, have a funny way of showing it today.

neil: all right, tell the truth, a lot of you were shopping at work today, cyber monday. but no deal in washington on this fiscal cliff. if you were there, how would you get a deal done, you can tweet us, we'll read the best answers at the end. but a lot of have you been getting mean with me, and personal insults, we will not tolerate it. -- but we will, because we don't get a lot, if we did we would show discretion.

anything bad you have to say, send it to lou dobbs, -- kidding. >> meanwhile, white house morning that uncertainty over fiscal cliff tax hikes could keep holiday shoppers from spending. and katie said, mr. president look in the mirror, do something about it. right now know onus on republico make concessions on revenues. part of those consequences from elections were boein both sidesg a little, i see it just one way thus far. >> we have white house coming out with the economic numbers warning that middle class might not go out and spend on holiday gifts. neil: do you believe it? >> i don't. neil: all right, it would take a ama c truck and a thum thermonur

reactioning to stop my wife. >> they are trying to use the middle class argument that they used to get president obama reelected to get a fiscal deal done, the white house is focussed on the middle class, they call senators, and house machines and tell them, -- house numbers, telling them, uncertainty is killing me but they fail to mention that tax hike with fiscal cliff, president obamaments tax hikes on those making more than $2 theft thousand a year, that will affect their middle class that their job creat creators the nor be able to pay them. neil: the train has left that spending station. i should say that taxes will go up. leaving that aside.

how do you make the argument that a deal by the end of the year, even if it is bad, is better than no deal, if ratings agents pounce on a crafty deal, let's say waded toward tax hikes not addressinggspending cuts, wouldn't credit agency seize on that and downgrade us just the same? >> absolutely. this is what we saw with debt ceiling last summer, we saw our credit rating go down. and if you want to talk about that, white house tapped tim geithner today, treasury secretary to head the fiscal talks, he is the one that said we should have a debt ceiling and got the bad debt deal last year, and we were down graded anyway. if it is a bad deal, which is is probably going to be because we have no time left. neil: word from dick carney at

white house, for time being social security is not on the table that is a big one. >> right. neil: if that is off the table, what is on? >> well, that is the big question if they put entitlement reform, quote, on the table. the problem is they cannot do that in 60 days, that is impossible, they might get the promise but we go back to george w. bush era with the promise and it never happened. neil: raise taxes first. katie thank you very much. >> thank you, neil. neil: you know, united nations once u.s. to pony up to help bridge temperatures down, -- to bring temperatures down, global warming push that could pull big bucks from your wallet. you will not believe where they are meeting to discuss this. it not a place like that, think a lot warmer. a lot warmer.

neil: well, this is a nice local if you are going to have a big meeting on climate change, doha, qatar. today, run is pushing for rich kupri tcountries to help pay for nations to fight global warming, why is this a good idea? >> one we are a shared responsibility. governments have to work together to fight this problem. and u.s. is one of the world's wealthiest countries. neil: what if it is not all

man-made? we had others on here who talk about whether cycle storms, cycle weather patterns over decades, and that we're addressing a problem, and an expensive issue to address, needlessly? >> you know, what would be more expensive is if he don't do anything, it is best to do do what we can to stop the climate change. neil: you are saying man-made this climate change. >> it is occurring, yes. neil: i don't doubt that, i agree, but i wonder if we can peg it on man, and zap richer countries to pay for correcting a problem for which may might not be responsible. >> i'm not sure that link is necessary? >> yeah, don't you think, if you

give he a ticket for speeding, sure as hell better have been speeding. >> not in your interest to wear a seat belt whether or not you are speeding, it is in our interest to help countries adapt to climate change, which is in man-made. u.s. is leading emission emitter. neil: we had emissions growing in 60s, did you not have factories, and environmental standards it was still going at a break-neck pace. what has changed post all of the corrections that supposedly addressed this and still running amuck. neil: we have not made corrections we need to stop the worse impact. >> we have a grow globa

you now force companies, richer nations, many of them could ill afford this we're getting on our feet now in u.s. right to fix a problem that might not be fix able. with man-made solutions. >> this is a shared responsibility, all businesses, governmenting and individuals to to work together to solve this problem. neil: i share your view with this is a shared responsibility. factories to should to their best to leave this environment in good shape, but when you put an edict beyond that, and a

disproportion at onus on other countries, you are taking a leap, right? if you are wrong. in the end, we spend trillions of dollars for what? >> well, there are -- is a link between man-made emissions and climate changing, the last year was warmest year on record. and as you see weather patterns are mere extreme there is a link between man-made emissions. neil: have you seen special that was put together on the dust bowl, man did not create that, it was just a bitch for all involved. not a single fortune 500 company was to blame. it was such a huge dislocation, it had a bigger impact on society then. some argue, than the depression itself. >> well, if we don't address climate change we will have several bust bowls.

neil: but you can't say, this whether cycles -- weather cycles are playing a part. >> weather patterns are, naturally occurring, you mean? it is like smoking, smoking increases your risk of lung cancer, everyone accepts that. neil: but all these weather patterns like 50 years ago, severe storms, and damaging hurricanes, if they are not what they were back then, then, what are you doing now? >> but, climate change is making that worse. so -- >-->> i guess we could say, you3 know, paper is a maserati, but, are we really, addressing the problem or are we ignoring what could be a cyclical even beyond man's ability to correct? >> are you asking are we addressing the problem by helping poor countries aat that

point oadapt toclimbal climate change. neil: but, without polluting our air, is there a big -- difference than, guiding to what are efficient and environmentally friendly companies, rather than edict a tax that could be far more damaging to the giver that that given alike. >> there is no tax on -- we're talking about providing support. neil: it would be a tax, a climate tax, really? >> no,. neil: what do you doll th call g crazed. >> we have promised to give to global climate fund. neil: if you are paying that money, that is more money than you pay now, so, -- -- what it is a dessert. >> part of our shared

responsibility? we have a responsibility. neil: you don't call that a tax? >> it's not a tax. >> what it is. >> a shared responsibility. neil: if you force me to give you money, i don't have to call it a tax, but it sure as hell will feel like a tax. >> you are giving me the money, i'm not forcing you to give me the money, it is in our shared interest to give me that. neil: you tell that to the wealthy countries, you think they will go along, and say she is absolutely right. >> if they were smart, they would. >> what do you say 10 years from now, are still a young woman i will belong retired, but, 10 years, and it has not done squat. you say oh, my god, it is all wrong. >> it won't, because investment will be worth a -- it will payoff. without these countries, adapting it the cause an economic crisis that is far more than we have.

neil: okay. we can respectfully disagree. very good to have you. >> thank you. >> well, grover will not roll over, more republicans are bailing on his no tax hike pledge, but norquist is not giving up, he is fighting back, some say he is getting embarrassing for republican, really embarrassing. this family used capital one venture miles to come home for the holidays. that's double miles you can actually use... sadly, their brother's white christmas just got "blacked out."

[ brother ] but it's the family party! really jingles your bells, doesn't it? my gift to you! the capital one venture card! for any flight, any time! that's double miles you can actually e! how illinating. hat's in your wallet? let me guess, am i on the naughty list ain? ho ho ho!

>> we could ask president bush how his second term went after he broke his pledge, did he damage the pledge? or did by breaking his pledge, he lost a second term for the presidency because he had not kept his word with the american people, because he raised taxes because the democrats promised

to cut spending, they did not cut spending they did raise trackses they increased spending. neil: americans for tax reform president grover norquist had almost like a widt wizard of oze grip on republicans for years. you can't even entertain hiking taxes would -- without guaranteeing further cuts down the road, republicans by and large have stuck to that but now post this election, we've seen a half dozen prominent republican senator saying that this no tax hike pledge may not be useful any more, you see just some who share that view. grover is no longer oz. just a cranky guy behind a curtain, pulling the crank, a

wizard of oz reference, i thought it was the good, many here did not. mark meckler said they will make a mistake with that julie disagrees, julie, what do you see at risk here? >> you know pledges are what you make when but to church you pledge your truth to husband or wife, not something you make in politics, you do not know what is going to happen down the road, people like peter king who made a pledge 25 years ago. times have changed. have you two wars that are not funded. have you a medicare prescription drug plan that a lot of these republicans voted for, not funded. you have a deficit thattic vides a trillion -- that exceeds a trillion dollars. i don't think any republicans will say what the hell let's

just raise taxes because barack obama says so. neil: they are running with tails between leg. >> look at the electeds. >> look, bottom line, i don't like pledges of any kind, you have to be pragmatic in washington both sides, democrats should not make pledges either, they need to come to the table. neil: you don't have to worry, they will not. what is going on on the whole tax thing, and whole norquist thing? main were saying that -- today saying, that this is really about the imploying of grover norquist, he took afence to that in my interview earlier, but that is what is going on, probably more more than that, what do you say? >> first, i ca i have to addrest julie said, almost someone who lives inside of beltway could

say that a pledge does not matter, this is a promise, they said while they serve in congress, not a short-term team, they made a promise, where i come from thee, the rest of america, separate from washington d.c., a pledge is a pledge, a promise is a promise. we the voters expect them to stick to it. it says, told to people who take pledge it is for while they serve in the offers, in congress. neil: i know what is says, but is it too inflectio inflexible n environment, you say don't do the hike thing. >> i am saying don't make a pledge if you do not intend to keep you it i am saying do not increase taxes, we having a fake fight, raising taxes on such a small percentage, we have roughly $1.4 trillion deficit every year, this is a make fight, the -- fake fight, the

real fight is the co of the government. neil: maybe we come they did not come later, he died on the vine because of it. >> a couple things, i appreciate mark thinking that i make my living in washington. i have not lived there in about 12 years, bush was sill to make that pledge, you are silling to make any pledge. i understand where mark is coming center. from. neil: he made a pledge. >> no new taxes. neil: but he turned on that pledge, those concessions never materialized. >> he was a bad negotiator. >> he was a bad negotiator. >> they need to be better negotiators, this a fiscal cliff, you are putting pen to

paper. >> both sides have to offer something. >> they have. neil: democrats ? >> grand bargains, and concessions on addressing entitlement. neil: today carney said leaving social security alone. >> i have not heard any on concessions. >> obama did come to table on certain things, as did john boehner, unfortunat unfortunatea tea party guys came to the table. neil: that is mark. >> once again year irrelevant. this is the tea party guys fault. this is against mainstream, all of them want big spending, that is what they are looking for, maintaining a big government is in their interest, people cannotment it any more despite electoral results exit polling show people' less deficit, less debt they are worried about long

terlong-term financial security. >> they said they would like to raise taxes on 1% of earners. >> they are so evil. >> thank you very much. you might have heard about this you get a blue flu shot every year this time, what if i told you, there is a place, you don't get a flu shot, you loss your job. talk about a real needle in the hype i, after this. -- heine i, after this.

so, you actually reward people for staying with you? yep. the longer you stay with us, the more you save. and when you switch from another company to us, we even reward you for the time you spent there. genius. yeah, genius. you guysust have your own loyalty program, right? well, we have something. sh her, tom. huh? you should see november! oh, yeah? giving you more. now that's progressive. call or click today.

side by side so you get the same coverage, often for less. that's one smart board. what else does it do, reverse gravity? [ laughs ] [ laughs ] [ whooshing ] tell me about it. why am i not going anywhere? you don't believe hard enough. a smarter way to shop around. now that's progressive. call or click today. [ grunting ] neil: lead me be could brief, in ohio, a hi healthcare company fd 150 workers for not getting flu shots, is that legal? >> this is an at-will state, ohio can decide, so they don't have a right to work there, if

the employer said you have to do this to keep your job, that is up to them, there is nothing illegal it has been upheld before, that flu shots can be required. and the health care workers need to be immunized not spread diseases that is where they go with it. neil: rebecca. >> the situation is a slippery slope, if you require people to get a flaw vaccination -- flu vaccination where does this go? do they agree to this it an interview or a contract, if they agree, sure, kely is right, if they did not, how are we then. posing. neil: they are a healthcare company, assuming you have to be healthy. >> what does healthy mean, that is the point, i don't have -- let's say i have diabetes. you get into question is flu

vaccine beneficial. neil: a very good point, kelly, every flu vaccine i had, i get the flu. i don't know why it happens, but you argue there is a distinction because of the type of companies it is. we had where overweight people cannot work at a health company, and discharge smokers, so, this is a health care company, they are saying that -- >> but, that is -- slippery slope, what behavior, what action, are you going to take that because you got, to do something, they will be fored to do other things ? >> i don't disagree with rebecca, but this situation here, kids have to be immunized to go to school, you have to prove it, you have to go to school it is mandated in certain environment, to say this is relationship at, they there --

there is separate, are cases where individuals work for airlines or koss mitti cosmetic, say they, i don't want to wear make-up, and court says, guess what this is policy, you then you have to do it. neil: rebecca is going. >> if the state mandates it, that is a ludicrous idea. in this situation, right now it was a personal employer. but, when you -- cannot compare vaccination for children, polio, to a flu vaccination. >> why not. you just said it is a slippery slope. >> you get into mandated while care, you know we're starting to talk about. >> we have mandated while care. >> i know, and i mean, -- >> that is a problem. >> we started to say, where are we going then this this country, where health care, and with mandates on personal freedoms. >> and you are happy taking all

that i stuff away. >> i am not happy, i am telling you what the law is, this is -- it does not matter what my personal opinion is, i am telling i read the law, i look add the it they have the right to do it, if you want to work at that company you are part of it, did my parents want me immunized when i was a kid, properly not but it was required, for rebecca to say there a huge distinction there is not. >> there is. neil: ladies, wish we had more time, you get a great deal but your boss gets a raw deal, how cyber monday could save folks money but cost them their jobs, we'll explain.

neil: today is expected to be the biggest on-line shopping day in history, 1.5 billion bucks in sales, but you know think about a lot of folk are doing it at work, you can't do that. you know we do that here, they shoot us. retail analyst, faith hope is joining us, saying that weekend was a kickoff of a huge holiday season in stores and on-line could faith. the job issue notwithstanding good numbers all the way? >> good numbers, really good. looks really good. thursday sales were fantastic. friday was a little slower. neil: the stores that opened. >> there were people on-line thursday. neil: why doesn't everyone go on-line? >> because, they need the excitement of going into the stores. neil: do you like that? >> i do go shopping. yes. neil: i can't see you like

getting ta tackled. >> well, i didn't go to walmart. but you see, lord and taylor was open thursday, friday is was soft. but interesting thing, the indicator for black friday, best black friday have not necessarily indicated a great season. what we have here, working in our favor, maybe you will agree, the longest lead time, longest time between thanksgiving and christmas. 5 weeks,. neil: could you pipe down bert. >> my new best friend, he said something nice about my shoes. >> you are not quite so happy about this? >> i am with faith, 10 fingers up for on-line. from -- 92 is that not at ways the case. >> a billion today.

neil: let's say you get your flat screen tv but you are fired forgetting it at work. >> we're trying to fire the president. >> our team across america was in walmart and all stores thursday, all through the night to friday. derosa family from brooklyn said, they came in all victims from hurricane sandy, came in for walmart items from eureka vacuum cleaners for $36, and computers to remace tvs, -- replace tvs, all items were out of stock within an hour, no rain check. neil: what about on-line? >> that is what they did, stores and shopping malls and shopping centers sales were down. because people were using mobil apps to payless per purchase product, but. record purchases on-line, and

those on-line sales will continue to surge because, mr. and mrs. derosa and shoppers we talked to. from california to connecticut say, you know, we're striking the big box stores like walmart, that do not have -- >> a lot on-line. >> a lot on-line. >> but they are ago. neil: a sale is a sale is a sale. >> the sales are going to get better, for people about what that did not come in this weekend. neil: what about fears that white house is -- >> who? neil: pipe down. that fear of fiscal cliff will keep the joes and joannes from spending. >> i think this is other part, i think they had enough with the white house, they had it with this, they have on. optimism. neil: fox news alert in, he was reelected. >> i heard it i'm trying to ignore it but i heard it. people do still to have jobs, i told you last time this is a

went on in a year. neil: have you been optimistic, you less so, but where do you come from for next year? >> 2013 retail and restaurant, reality is a lot of full timers are cut to part timers, and part timers are having their hours cut, purchasing power goes down. neil: why are you rolling your eyes. >> they will be create -- creative, a brought franchises and bought fast-food businesses. some drove cabs. neil: this year over last year? >> i am moving up from 4.1, i am getting closer, i am at 4.7 today. >> i am moving from 3.2 to 2.5. neil: oh, my -- >> internet sales up from 15 to 20% increase. >> we'll agree on the internet, but they will go out, and buy

household goods, you are right about that, this is going to put us over the top, there is still the luxury buyer. neil: there is still, and meats and cheeses. when you come back, you tweet, i decided, you love me. after this. [ ice crackling ] [ knuckles craing ] and who are you supposed to be, back-up? handle it. what you looking at? ha! cat-like reflexes... whoa! [ malennouncer ] the coors light silver bullet pint. it's bigger. it's resealable. it's still the coldest. don't you do it. don't you dot! [ male announcer ] frost brewed coors light. the world's most refreshing beer! can i still ship a gift in time r christmas? yeah, sure you can. great. where's your gift? uh... whew. [ male announcer ] break from the holiday stress. ship fedex express by december 22nd for christmas delivery.

>> you should be here during the break but i am glad you are not. what will you do to get a deal done? no media, and no cellphone nobody leaves until the deal is done. i would make real cuts and trying to get washington to stop overspending is like trying the thanksgiving pie from my hands. stand tough no tax increase whatsoever.